The interesting part with that is that Howard isn't leaving office, well, not being forced to anyway. So will he follow suit into the mess or take another stance for once?

Iraq war will go on for 50 yearts
Nostramdamus said so

he can't not follow suit surely?

I reckon Howard would like another go-round. So he's going to have to deal with the issue eventually.

But, if the federal election is held earlyish, before the US pulls out or is thrown out, he might be able to avoid dealing with it until the election after, by which time it might be less electorally poisonous.

He needs some luck to get through this - which he's had in the past, so why not?

Howard'll do whatever Bush does.

He needs some luck to get through this - which he's had in the past, so why not?

By luck, you mean people's stupidity, yes?

a guy on bourke st told me the war didn't even happen, that it was just a myth, like SARS.
whaddya reckon?

wsh: yes, and as Bush won't pull out, that weds Howard to that same (non) plan. But Bush will be gone soon, while Howard plans to carry on - what happens when Bush's successor pulls out? How does Howard deal with that in terms of domestic politics? And what happens if, somehow, this crazy push to invade Iran gets up? (The Australian government dispatched a warship to the gulf the other day, you know.)

empra: six of one, half a dozen of the other.

what is it with bourke st, till ?

i just had a guy yelling at me "i came here to judge, not to be judged. i love you"

probably the same guy.
this guy had sooo much information, plus he sold little bags of peanuts!
most useful man in the world.

Basically, I think it'll be the issue that kills Howard in the next election - moreso than domestic issues. Howard tying himself so closely to Bush has got to see him drown when the Bush ship sinks.

When Hillary/Obama pull out, Howard's not going to look good either way and he's going to piss off a lot of people that would have voted for him - but he's not a strong, independent enough leader to pull the troops out before then.

I dunno, Howard's managed to avoid Iraq becoming a real issue so far - compare and contrast Bush and Blair. It's basically cost the latter his job.

There've been no Australian casualties due to enemy action so far - that probably helps. Australian troops have mostly been stationed in the (relatively) safer areas of Iraq. I don't know what happens if Australia sticks in there long enough to take significant casualties.

don't worry about significant, wait until "any" comes up. (kovco aside)

In the context of the smallish Australian forces there, significant doesn't have to be a very large number.

i can see why bush is crapping himself about iraq, and is willing to throw more US bodies on the fire. the rationale being, if the allies ship out of iraq in its current state, our chances of localising resistance within a relatively small region would be greatly reduced. pulling out could result in more costly, more likely less localised military action in the future, with (even) less chance of sucess than the current conflict. i think the US Administration's fear is this would result in the probability of increased terrorists attacks on allied soil.

stupid idiots shouldn't have gone in in the first place, now it's looking like a lose-lose.

Paulie, it's too late for all that. They've already lost. More troops is a cosmetic solution, designed to keep the war going long enough for it to become someone other than Bush's problem. (Or, more scarily: what if Bush really believes the escalation will work?)

i had a big fight with my boss about iraq the other day when he said that Saddam did have wmd's and that he had clearly buried them somewhere in the desert. and this from a man who writes legislation for the government and get's paid $70 an hour. why are people so gullible when it comes to the 'war on terror'?

an interesting though not suprising article over at the independent: the spoils of war

i suppose its almost time for step 4 proper eh? :(

But if it's all-out civil war, how are they going to secure said spoils?

i had a big fight with my boss about iraq the other day when he said that Saddam did have wmd's and that he had clearly buried them somewhere in the desert. and this from a man who writes legislation for the government and get's paid $70 an hour. why are people so gullible when it comes to the 'war on terror'?

yeah i read Ritter's account of the WMD hunt before the current war. this guy was senior within the inspection team, it seemed to be pretty clear the inspectors' position was that there were no active weapons or substantial manufacturing capability; they were digging around in the desert for years and came up with nothing. apparently the CIA command in the country set a deadline for locating the WMDs, so they could have a pretext to invade. it really gives you an indication of the credibility of the intelligence available before the war.

Final post from a milblogger who was killed the other day. He had an ''if i die'' post ready top go and now it is live and yet he is not.

Kinda spooky.

indeed

Best piece of Iraq writing i've read recently

corruption and stupidity

did anyone see foreign correspondent last night?

the fella who got blown up in the combat vehicle and had a bit blown out of his arm which was replaced surgically by some other upside down piece of muscle? and then he became a complete UNIT and flew choppers instead.

amazing.

and the marines have the same anthem as the Adelaide Crows.

even more amazing.

which is actually the same as Captain Comic- that computer game from the 80's.

not that amazing.

When we go out on patrol we make jokes like: '' 'raq it up boys!''

'''raq and roll!''

'''raqtify THIS motherfucker!''

'''raq that.''

and my favourite

'''raq the house motherfuckers. Lock and load.''

Ahhhh...good times. Good times.

i am sick of getting ''support our troops'' emails

showing pics of the troops in mud and pointing out what an easy life we have by comparison

oh poor fucking babies.....

what that email needed was hundreds and hundreds of dead iraqi women and children blown to fucking smithereens - body parts everywhere

from fpif.org

The Iraq War has probably generated more second thoughts than any other policy of the Bush administration. Those who are having second thoughts include many soldiers who have returned home after their rotation after seeing and experiencing enough trauma to last a lifetime. The Pentagon's solution to all this? End the war? Wrong. At least provide sufficient health care to returning vets with Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSD)? Wrong again.

As FPIF contributor Adil Shamoo writes in A Moral Burden on U.S. Soldiers, ''Media reports indicate that the military is conducting research to use drugs that will purportedly prevent PTSDs or eliminate the disorder. If these reports are true, there are serious concerns as to what kind of a future soldier is in the making. Do we really want soldiers without a conscience? Instead of the bionic 21st century soldier we imagined in the twentieth century, instead we may have soldiers drug-induced into humans with no conscience.''

Hmmnn, people with no conscience going over the Iraq? But we have that already. They're called contractors. As FPIF contributor William D. Hartung explains in an excerpt from the new book Lessons from Iraq, Halliburton was not the only large firm to exploit the war for profit. In Invitation to Steal: War Profiteering in Iraq, he writes about the firm Custer Battles, named after its founders Scott Custer and Michael Battles, who went to Iraq with no capital, no employees, and no experience in the security business. ''Shortly after arriving in Iraq, Custer Battles received a lucrative contract to provide security for the Baghdad airport,'' Hartung writes. ''As an example of just how loose controls were, one early payment to the company was made in the form of $2 million in shrink wrapped $20 bills, transferred to the firm in exchange for a handwritten receipt. A film of two Custer employees playing football with a brick of the shrink wrapped bills provided one of the most enduring images of greed and corruption generated by the Iraq occupation contracting fiasco.''

Mo- .....You're a fool. We DO have it easy in the west because of men like them, whether you like it or not. That's the simple reality of the situation. Like it or fucking lump it.

It's more to do with economics, really.

Iraq sacks 62,000 accused of corruption

This is disgusting

Some american gun sight have biblical verses on them.

defending us well they are, from those scary iraqis who effect our way of life so much.....yes.....

fucking crusaders. ugh.

Curveball admits he lied about WMD. Surprise of the year!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/secret-memos-expose-link-between-oil-firms-and-invasion-of-iraq-2269610.html

so oil was a massive concern, nothing we didn't know already, but its nice to see the proof...

remember what Blair called this? a ''crazy conspiracy''

Wikileaks Iraq war logs: every death mapped