me/album out 3rd feb.

Humility is a virtue.

Pride is not.

Go on then. Tell us about your band.

this is an interesting spin on the tall-poppy syndrome - you could read it not as wanting to stop people from getting 'too big for their boots' but a wider cowardice about us 'laid back aussies' having to similarly make the effort to be good at shit...

mind, i think all nationalism is bollocks.

Pride is just fine.

I have been thinking about this too, Evelyn. People in Melbourne are boring.

interesting- i like the whole tall-poppy thing because if we didn't have it we'd end up like americans but at the same time a certain level of ego is healthy and necessary.

In the wise words of John Giorno: "It's a mistake to think that you're special."

Yes, self promotion or a dream is a disease! stupid isn't it/

I don't see it as humility as times. It comes across as more desperate in some people.

I don't see pride as being any less of a virtue than humility - in context either can be very appealing in a person's character.

sorry I don't do steak knives.

blatant patriotism is unaustralian

examples please Ev? i'm not phobic of self promotion as about 95% of my threads are just that!

In the wise words of John Giorno: "It's a mistake to think that you're special."

Why?? How would any of us get out of bed in the morning if we didn't think that in some way we were kind of awesome.

I think it's better for people to prove their worth, rather than promote it.

absolutely, naboo - show, don't tell.

Patriotism has nothing to do with all of this - I'm speaking more on a person to person level. Even though I am generalising on a national level.

buy my record please.

I think it's better for people to prove their worth, rather than promote it.

==========

I agree... To a certain degree. But why then when people are successful they're ashamed to talk about it?

And how do people go about proving their worth if no one knows who the heck they are coz they never told anyone who they are or what they do?

I think you can question the concept of 'being special' and still DO stuff. It just seems that many people assume the sun shines out of their arse and act accordingly who's so-called talent doesn't really warrant that attitude. This applies to all levels of popular culture as far as I can tell.

Self-promotion and the insane amount of cross-media saturation crap was one of the reasons I wasn't particularly fond of Steve Irwin. It seemed very crass and American. Which is what blatant, shamelss self-promotion is. You've just gotta know where to draw the line with it. Bands talking themselves and their gigs up is generally fine.

Nah, that's ridiculous, i don't think i could think of one australian that doesn't think at least something creative done by another australian is pretty schmick.

just as long as they work at a petrol station as well...

your a fucking idiot KOTH.

yeah, well you've got a camera stuck to your face.

hmmm....

i guess some aussies really are lame.

i think americans definitely have a different mindset to australians, but regardless of where you come from - it seems to me that there are a large contingent of people out there who have been brainwashed by mass media and mass marketing to the point of aligning their value systems and beliefs with whatever is popular, highly marketed or fashionable and so they make sure they have the latest car, clothes, ipod, camera, ski-suit, handbag etc etc. that would be what? about 90-95% of consumers in developed countries. (warning - gross generalisation to make a point)

the other 5-10% of consumers use things like word-of-mouth or on-line forums or their friends or whatever to find out what they like and don't like (perhaps but not always in search of something different or in search of an alternative way to share a common cultural bond with others) and in doing so maybe actively or passively eshewing the brainwashing mass-marketing machines that say "LOVING SPORT IS YOUR NATIONAL IDENTITY!! so get with the program! and here is the clothing/beer/advertising you need to consume in order to prove you are AUSTRALIAN!!"

so I say - there's no need to over-market or over-state your purpose if the audience you seek lies in that 5-10% bracket (this doesn't mean don't promote yourself - do so with pride but don't model your marketing on the mass-media norms) - let people come to you naturally in their own good time - if you've got something that people identify with - and want to absorb as part of their own cultural identity - then don't fret you will get the recognition you deserve.

and if you're suffering from impatience that's just because the mass-marketing PR machine is forcing us all into a fucking high-speed highly disposable rat-race which is sexist, ageist and mindless and y'all just need to slow down. MUSIC DOES NOT EXPIRE (contrary to what the major labels and their PR people would have you believe) once it's out there it exists for all time, and just like books and films - people will find it eventually.

(another rant brought to you by canadachat).

nice rant canadachat

why thankyou nn. i should say the same applies to art, photography and just about any form of creative output - i think sometimes a lot of alterative art is often "ahead of its time" lacking recognition in the now, but eventually being rediscovered by and influencing later generations - and that ain't no bad thing.

we are all awesome but we don't have to be a wanker about it.

Aussies are scared to put themselves out on a limb Eve, in a social way... mostly artist cop this cold shoulder for being creative and inviting people to shows or places of their work…. A very few people actually bag out artist. AND even so the artist still win… they are still focused on the artist.

In overpopulated countries people self-promotion like mad because its only way your going to see each other again.

Go for it I say, who cares what people think…. I’d rather a painter or musician tell me about their show rather than watching a 30min television ad…. Fuck television is for the weak.

Yep. I'm glad I brought it up. I mean... I think it's something that deserves a little attention now and then.

And contrary to how some people seem to have taken it, I'm not suggesting that people should go around handing out fliers to every person they see on the street, or go too nuts with it or whatever. I was more just referring to a general sense of confidence and freedom in discussing what it is that you do with your time outside of work.

After all, it has to be something that you're doing because you're passionate about it - or at least like it a whole bunch. There aren't too many monetary or fame-shaped rewards, so that's not what it's all about at this stage of the game. And once that becomes a factor people generally get someone else to do the promoting for them, so it's no longer an issue.

I'm just saying... There's no need to be concerned about what people are going to think of what you're doing. That was my main point. I think. hehe.

Australia is a tough market to crack. we are so hard to impress, i think its due to our inferiority complex, we are afraid to put our hands up and say this is cool incase someone in a bigger cooler country disagrees. ------- i disagree, in fact i see it as the opposite. i think people (that i know anyway) only accept what they really like. i dont think we are hard to please, we just know what we like and dont care what others think about it.

LIVINGINCANADA SAID:

i think americans definitely have a different mindset to australians, but regardless of where you come from - it seems to me that there are a large contingent of people out there who have been brainwashed by mass media and mass marketing to the point of aligning their value systems and beliefs with whatever is popular, highly marketed or fashionable and so they make sure they have the latest car, clothes, ipod, camera, ski-suit, handbag etc etc. that would be what? about 90-95% of consumers in developed countries. (warning - gross generalisation to make a point)

the other 5-10% of consumers use things like word-of-mouth or on-line forums or their friends or whatever to find out what they like and don't like (perhaps but not always in search of something different or in search of an alternative way to share a common cultural bond with others) and in doing so maybe actively or passively eshewing the brainwashing mass-marketing machines that say "LOVING SPORT IS YOUR NATIONAL IDENTITY!! so get with the program! and here is the clothing/beer/advertising you need to consume in order to prove you are AUSTRALIAN!!"

so I say - there's no need to over-market or over-state your purpose if the audience you seek lies in that 5-10% bracket (this doesn't mean don't promote yourself - do so with pride but don't model your marketing on the mass-media norms) - let people come to you naturally in their own good time - if you've got something that people identify with - and want to absorb as part of their own cultural identity - then don't fret you will get the recognition you deserve.

and if you're suffering from impatience that's just because the mass-marketing PR machine is forcing us all into a fucking high-speed highly disposable rat-race which is sexist, ageist and mindless and y'all just need to slow down. MUSIC DOES NOT EXPIRE (contrary to what the major labels and their PR people would have you believe) once it's out there it exists for all time, and just like books and films - people will find it eventually.

(another rant brought to you by canadachat).

......................................................................

CANADACHAT SPEAKETH THE TRUTH!

Quite probably the most intelligent thing I've ever read on this site.

I don't know what planet you're all living on, but Australia these days is full of self-promoting cunts looking to rip each other off in the name of success.

Maybe up until the last ten years we all had a pretty mature view of what it is to be succesful. These days the general trend has become almost sook like - we are desperate for validation.

Being desperate for validation is lame. Its all about doing whatever the fuck you want and not having a secret agenda to get famous.

I think it comes down to capitalism relying on and exploiting an individuals need for nourishment of the ego through self promotion and self importance to the point where this culture is perpetuating from within itself. The system relies on us being a bunch of self centered, all consuming top of the pile seeking cunts and to be top of the pile you no longer require any real quantifiable talent. Just be blessed with marketable looks or mainly be born into a family with strong connections and feed your soul your own press and promote yourself at any cost, talent not required, and you are on your way.

The core of it I guess is our need to feel validated and important in our existence becuase we are just like ants on this planet, but I for one and quite disturbed when I meet people who identify themselves as " i live for music, music is my life" etc and they have never heard of say Neil Young or Chuck Berry or Gershwin etc etc

there is a line in an against me! song that says

"cause it's so much less confusing when lines are drawn like this, when people are either consumers or revolutionaries..."

i think that's how it is when it comes to this, i get shit for saying i like myspace music or that i will put up some promo thread on m&n, but why? because i am proud of what i do and i am not afraid to tell anyone about it, does this make me part of the massive media machine that is constantly consuming and destroying creative drive? i also get shit when i ask someone if their music is good "oh, yeah well i make music." "is it good?" and the standard response is "not really it's pretty shit." then they smile at me.

so i wonder why they keep doing it if they really believe it's shit then i find out they do believe in it and in reality these people i meet and talk to are just desperate not to be associated with a bullshit media. this fear limits you, don't let it, if you like teh music you make, promote it and be proud of it, i don't see why not.

also when people talk about over self-promotion like the phone messaging the e-mails the constant threads, you have your choices, if you don't like the way someone is promoting them selves call them and tell them to take you the phone message list and the e-mail list and as for the threads here, well we all have the dickhead function.

it's like rodney rude said:

"if you got offended once then oh well change the station, if you kept watching and kept getting offended to the point where you made a formal complaint, then your a fucking dickhead."

why would you ask people if there music is good or not?

of course everyone is going to say nah its pretty shit even though they believe in it