*is still cool

Does he know the score at this point in his career?

89-90. First really dull Bad Seeds tour. Became successful afterwards.

It's everything from after Shivers (sorry) (actually quite like Door, Door) up to Let Love In, excluding The fucking Ship Song, or thereabouts.

Well, he knows how to score at that point in his career.

[Cave is both a rampant misogynist and an arch-snob but it’s actually his snobbery that bothers me more – or rather, the way that his snobbery, amplified and encouraged by others, lends to his misogyny an air of respectability, as if it were something to be admired.

Like many women, I have a troubled relationship with the sexism and, yes, misogyny that continues to shape popular music. On the one hand I abhor it and it makes me tired and angry; on the other I love plenty of artists whose sexual politics could at best be described as dubious. Cave was once among them.](http://web.overland.org.au/previous-issues/issue-197/feature-anwyn-crawford/)

Ex-chat Anwyn Crawford on Nick Cave. It's a pretty amazing article.

Bugger. It didn't like that, did it!

Cave is both a rampant misogynist and an arch-snob but it’s actually his snobbery that bothers me more – or rather, the way that his snobbery, amplified and encouraged by others, lends to his misogyny an air of respectability, as if it were something to be admired.

Like many women, I have a troubled relationship with the sexism and, yes, misogyny that continues to shape popular music. On the one hand I abhor it and it makes me tired and angry; on the other I love plenty of artists whose sexual politics could at best be described as dubious. Cave was once among them.

I was dating the backlash. I don't like the bad seeds at all and I don't like many of hte Birthday Party recordings. The gigs, on the other hand, were amazing.

Put out a lot of stuff, much of it good. All told he hasn't written as many good, inventive or unique, songs as one good Crow album. Australia desperately needs a 'world class' underground artists for our limpid sense of relevance so a lot of lazy myth-makers - read music journalists - have sainted him. There are many, MANY less talented people in the world than Nick Cave.

Oh and like Sonic Youth his best album was his most successful in my books: Cave - Let Love In, Youth - Dirty.

All told he hasn't written as many good, inventive or unique, songs as one good Crow album.

BAM!

-shrug-

Is it uncool to say that I quite like the Bad Seeds stuff?

Whatever he's done since, Mercy Seat is still a mighty song.

I liked him better before he became PM.

I think Nick's been pretty consistent with his output from BND all the way to Grinderman. Plenty of duds along the way, but still a lot of awesome.

I do wonder how much of the backlash is to do with his ex-pat status? He has been one for a long time.

It's got more to with the fact that he has turned into a cabaret parody of himself.

backlash may be due to the fact that he is a wanker ?

I'm a big fan of Cave and am still convinced that he is getting cooler.

it's prolly because he realised he's been a giant dick for 30 years and parodying himself makes him feel like he's an adult, looking back saying oh yes youth etc..I'm so grown up now...

although I still like his songs/vibe ...sans grinderduds..

crisis of ageing..this is why one must work hard at their art..to be relevant as one gets older. even if people laugh at the relevance..or young people say oh old man etc etc..

I reckon a few more grey hairs and you'll hear more brilliance from him. it's just a stage.

i have been over and then back on nick cave so many times

sometimes he goes through phases that don't interest me, but i have learned not to write him off & respect the fact that he doesn't keep churning out the same album again and again

so right now i think he's pretty boring but i will always be interested in what he does next

It's got more to with the fact that he has turned into a cabaret parody of himself.

notwithstanding the fact that he's always had a bit of a self-parodic streak, i think the most recent flowering of his self-aware cabaret parody schtick (abbatoir blues IMO) was probably his best album, or equal best. but i would welcome a return to less schlocky waters, yes.

i.e. You win.

Oh, sorry. It's to noneabove.

:)

I did consider it.
I considered it ridiculous.

It's not.

hmmm to this backlash...of a dude thats been around like 30 years...but whatever.

Cave may be more comparable with Rod Stewart or Bryan Ferry - singers prepared to totally sell out their schtick for popular MOR crooning so they can pay multiple mortgages and child support.

Shutup.

Cave may be more comparable with Rod Stewart or Bryan Ferry - singers prepared to totally sell out their schtick for popular MOR crooning so they can pay multiple mortgages and child support.

nicely summed up :)

Hypothetical question: At what point in Cave's career would have been the perfect time for him to quit music (such that the maximum amount of credibility is retained)? After which album?

Watching Alice is a pretty good song, no?

I think that Nick c has been a great, charismatic front person over the years, and that after a certain, quite early point, there has alwasy been a bit self-parody about him (recall that Nick The Stripper song) and a kind of critique of rock. he may have been the weakest link of The Birthday Party, but it wouldn't have been The Birthday Party without him - the whole is far greater than the sum of his parts (Rowland S Hoawrd included) , so when you talk about Nick Cave, you are really only talking about his career after the Birthday Party, none of which gets near the awesome power of that band (Is there a better moment than when the guitar comes in at the beginning of the Friend Catcher?).

After th Birthday Party, there's lots of great moments for some time, but as the gap between Nick Cave and Mick Harvey widens, the songs diminish in power. Nick's writings becomes more self-examining, as if the whole proejct to have an ironic career, to be Elvis, is going exaclty to plan - self-indulgence is all part of this.

Grinderman's emergence is where i ceased to listen, but the great songs will always be great. The thing i giggle most about now is how much Nick reminds me of a poor man's Serge Gainsborough, but then again so do a whole bunch of his contemporarys.

I will continue to be entertained by Nick's antics, but his best work is long behind him and he knows it. Jut note that it's work and the guy has worked very hard for long period of time - it's not an accident and he's not a fucking idiot like John Farnham or Jimmy Barnes.

Adressing some other issues:

Pussy Galore are a fantastic band, and the whole corpse love album is a total hoot. They win to a huge degree simply by writing a song about Ian Mackaye called ''you look like a jew'', and that's not even mentioning shit like groovy phone or hardcore rebellion. PG also covered an entire Rolling Stones album and it's fantastic. If you you don't like them, you are just plain incorrect, and i will never, ever respect your opinion about music in any way, shape or form.

Alos, Neil Hagerty is in them and went on to make Royal Trux happen and Royal Trux are total genius - and wee all over the Blues Explosion.

Jesus and Mry Chain are grouse. I saw them toruing darklands and they were FUCKING INCREDIBLE. Age may have diminished them a bit but by fuck, there's a enough good shit there to burn down a lot of other acts.

The thing i giggle most about now is how much Nick reminds me of a poor man's Serge Gainsborough

I have far too much respect for Serge Gainsbourg to see the resemblence.

the guy has worked very hard for long period of time

With the amount of effort he puts into writing songs, you'd think he'd be a bit better at it.

he's not a fucking idiot like John Farnham or Jimmy Barnes

Yes he is.

I paid Nick Cave's son to clean out my gutters.
Bloody hopeless, syringes everywhere!

he's not a fucking idiot like John Farnham or Jimmy Barnes

Yes he is.

Ooh, please do continue. Should be interesting.

i'd love to hear how cave is barnes or farnham. do we just hate people with long careers? ie. vampire weekend are genius because they're frsh but talking heads/ paul simon suck because they've lived long enough to have some ups and downs?

I haven't been pleased to see how underutilised the Bad Seeds are these days. Nick plonking away on a piano whilst Conway Savage shakes a tambourine...Mick Harvey NOT playing guitar whilst Nick does....Warren Ellis filling up EVERY BLOODY SPACE!!!

I hope there is a reshaking ofthe line-up again and they get back to letting the right person for the job do their job. I'm also quite eager to seewhat Ed Kuepper will bring to the table.

he may have been the weakest link of The Birthday Party, but it wouldn't have been The Birthday Party without him - the whole is far greater than the sum of his parts

True.

(Is there a better moment than when the guitar comes in at the beginning of the Friend Catcher?).

thinking
Yeah, probably not.

as the gap between Nick Cave and Mick Harvey widens, the songs diminish in power.

True.

how much Nick reminds me of a poor man's Serge Gainsborough

When I saw Morris respond to this I actually thought I wrote it! Did I? searches other threads
So in conclusion, Scale is possibly me.

With the amount of effort he puts into writing songs, you'd think he'd be a bit better at it.

I actually think when he hit the point of going to an office and sitting at a word processor is when he came under the jurisdiction of The Law of Diminishing Returns. He was better when he got whacked and wrote them on the backs of serviettes.

PondRepellent said 7 hours ago:
Ooh, please do continue. Should be interesting.

I like your gib.

Now I can remember, now I can remember.